What It Really Takes To Succeed In 2026 | Patrick Smith - Founder of Zally

Shamil Malachiyev: Good morning, everyone. My guest today had 11 failed ventures before he turned 25, and he is now the founder of Zally, a startup turning behavior into signals with the help of AI. So please welcome Patrick Smith.

Patrick Smith: Hi, good morning Shamil, thank you for having me.

Shamil Malachiyev: Good morning, Patrick.

Patrick Smith: As you can see, it's a sunny day here today. And I have to say, your setup is insane. We talked about it before we started recording. I have a hopefully slightly nice backdrop - it's San Francisco you see behind me - but your setup is a killer.

Shamil Malachiyev: Well, the next thing on my setup is going to be a backdrop like yours, hopefully. That's a big one that everyone's trying to get me to. Can we start with you telling us a little bit about where you are today, and about the work that you do at Zally?

Patrick Smith: Absolutely. Zally was founded three years ago. We are a small team, 20-plus people. We work as an applied AI research lab trying to turn behavior into understanding. We utilize the way people interact with their smart devices - that can be your mobile phone, your laptop, it could be wearables. We take the raw data from all these sources and use AI and machine learning to train on user behavior, and use that for something like authentication, which is our first proof point as an application.

Shamil Malachiyev: And how do you think - if we nail the whole behavior thing, if we take all of the data that's around us and make real good use of it - how would that life look?

Patrick Smith: Of course, we're trying to make the world a better place. I think one of the missing elements in today's world is that we don't understand the intention behind a purchase online or adding credentials. So take a step back and look at authentication. From day dot, passwords have been around for thousands of years - when you knocked on the door and had a way in. But the more you use a password and the more you expose it to the world, the weaker it becomes. So you end up creating password vaults and storing them safely. A lot of people use their keyboard and have a Post-it note behind it as a way to have a secure password. And at the end of the day, when you're adding additional friction - one-time passcodes, multi-factor - it just adds to the user journey.

So what we're trying to do is give power back to humans: utilize the way we interact with our smart devices to actually become more secure online. Behavior is like a DNA. So we call it digital body language that we're able to capture. If you utilize the way you interact, we're able to identify the individual continuously. It's not just a point in time, it's continuous authentication. You are then able to prove who is behind the device, and as a result we will hopefully reduce fraud massively and secure and protect users in the digital world.

Shamil Malachiyev: That kind of sounds to me like digital fingerprints. But really, if somebody's going to be looking at the data, they're going to be trying to find your fingerprints.

Patrick Smith: In the technical world, the fingerprint typically includes device ID and some movement and physical biometrics, like your Face ID or your fingerprint. We like to look at this as your identity online which is being created. It can verify you and authenticate you continuously, but it can also be used as a point-in-time exercise when you need to do step-ups and actually validate if this is Shamil or not. And with deepfakes and voice recognition being utilized today, it's so important to actually know who is behind these devices, not just who is likely to be in possession of the right device. That is what we're trying to change. This is just one vertical our technology can be applied to - over time we have multiple other things that we're going to do, but first it is the authentication vertical, which is the backbone of the internet, more or less.

Shamil Malachiyev: And what was the ideation process like?

Patrick Smith: How I came about the idea? I was in London. If I take you through my journey: after I came to London and had left a company, I set up a one-man-band agency helping and solving problems for a few clients. This was about a year prior to COVID, and I could see a lot of my customers struggling with cart abandonment caused by password friction and account creation. We also had a lot of payment issues, but I didn't want to go into the regulated market of payments - there was a lot of competition in fintech, and there still is. So I started to look into behavior as a way to authenticate users.

But it was first, sadly, when my mom passed away with cancer and left my dad with dementia, not being able to manage his affairs efficiently, that I thought: this is a real use case for our technology, if we're able to confirm a user by how they interact. So I set out on a journey, invested some money into a study over two years to see: are we able to actually distinguish users, and how confident are we in distinguishing them? After two years I had, let us call it an MVP, that was able to prove that Shamil is who he is, continuously, with quite a high level of accuracy - but not strong enough. So I contacted Innovate UK, the UK's innovation fund, and they gave us an IP grant. But they also recommended we move closer to the cybersecurity community in the UK, and a lot of cybersecurity businesses are based up in Manchester, in the north of England. So three years ago I took my family and we moved up to Manchester. That has been really, really great. We moved into the Digital Security Hub, which is the incubator for GCHQ in Manchester. And then we raised our initial funds from angel investors in our pre-seed round. And the story goes on from there.

Shamil Malachiyev: And how was that process of raising - was that the first time raising funds for you?

Patrick Smith: No, not the first time. Prior to this - you mentioned in the intro that I've had 11 failures. It's good to say that I had some success stories too, before the 11 failures, which came when I thought I knew it all. If I take you back to the very beginning: I set up two businesses at the age of 10. One was a full-stack development business, the other one was a DJ booking business. I delivered websites to my dad's friends and family members. I charged them $50 per website. They paid in advance with the hope of getting a brilliant website. I didn't know anything about building websites, but I'd sold them the dream, so I had to deliver on that dream.

So I learned to code HTML from the For Dummies books, and design too, because I wanted to become full stack - well, I didn't know there was a separation, that somebody could do the design and somebody else the coding, at that point in time. So I did absolutely everything myself. I learned Adobe - I remember the Adobe Photoshop bible; this was the early days of Adobe. And I sold those websites, and I continued to build since then.

But it was the DJ business that really took off. I was picked up professionally when I was 13. My mom drove me around to birthday parties and school discos. When I was 14 I needed a driver to take me around with full mobile equipment - I had a couple of guys named Tommy that drove me. I actually had three drivers, and they were all named Tommy, which is quite funny - I always knew there was a Tommy coming to pick me up. They drove me to weddings; I've done about 250 weddings in my DJ career, and a thousand DJ jobs.

The thing is, when I was 16, I played at a wedding venue which had two venues in one, met another fellow DJ, and we agreed to meet up the next day, because I had an idea of connecting wedding couples with wedding venues and entertainment. Instead of us saying no to five DJ jobs - because we can only be in one place at one time - I said, let us try to figure out how we can say yes to absolutely everything, find DJs, and grow. Long story short, we ended up having 40 full-time DJs after a year. We scaled that to a thousand DJ jobs within 12 to 15 months. And then we did an exit at the age of 18.

When I had done that exit, I thought I could take over the world overnight. And of course, if you give a guy money in his pocket, he goes out and buys a silly supercar, and then he wants to invest in a lot of businesses. So I set up a group of events and media businesses. So when I say I had 11 failures - there were three large groups of companies that were the failures, so it sounds like they were individual, but it was a larger group that went bust overnight. I think I learned more from that failure than I've done ever since.

And I was a school dropout - I left school at the age of 16, because my teachers thought I was better off just continuing to work. I rocked up at school in a full suit and tie because I had meetings; I ran off to a wedding where I negotiated a deal, and so on. So they said: why are you wasting time being at school? You will hopefully make it in life.

Shamil Malachiyev: What was your life like back then, at 16, 17, growing that to a thousand DJ engagements? What was your day like?

Patrick Smith: I ran around with two or three mobile phones at any given time. Most of my day was on the phone, booking. Actually, when I was out Thursday, Friday, Saturday as a DJ, playing - that was my off time. On a weekday we closed the phone line at 10 o'clock and we opened at 8am, so there were long hours to call and book. We had two channels back then: you could go to our website and register that you wanted to be contacted, so we had to call them up, or we had to pick up the phone when it rang. And that was constant, constant. I think my friends hated being around me, because they heard my sales pitch -

Shamil Malachiyev: Too many times.

Patrick Smith: Back then, if you'd heard it five times, you could say it yourself, copy-paste it, and go on and on. It was the same spiel every single time. But it was fun. I spent a lot of time on a mobile phone, being brought around to all these venues, connecting with people.

It's good to mention we were also the first company that sent invoices for DJs. Typically you get cash in hand, but we sent invoices. That meant we opened up a market where the IRS - well, HMRC - could actually book us, because they could receive an invoice and pay it in a proper way. And that opened the doors to the corporate world, because we could do it professionally. We ended up having clients that booked us for every single event and activity they had throughout the year. Some customers were doing 10 different events across different departments - one company had maybe five Christmas parties depending on the department, then one leadership event, things like that. It was great.

And having high income meant we had great revenue in the business, so we were able to acquire a lot of equipment, and then we started to rent the equipment out to the DJs. That way we could source great DJs who are talented at music but maybe couldn't find the three to five thousand dollars - or pounds - for that initial buy of equipment. We just charged them a small fee on top. When I left the company I think we had 10 full sets we could bring out every night, and every night we had DJs out with those rented sets. We charged the customer one fee - a DJ with equipment - and we charged the DJ for the equipment. And because we sent the invoice, we had control of the whole payment process. It was fantastic.

Shamil Malachiyev: When you say "we", who was working for you back then?

Patrick Smith: When I say we, we were only two guys. I was doing all the sales, and I was doing a lot of the DJ jobs. One of the fortunate things when you run a DJ company like that: you pick and choose whatever you want, not necessarily what's best paid. I found a few places that hosted a lot of great events and weddings, and you get to know the personnel there. There was one place specifically that had the best apple juice ever - they worked with a farm that made the best apple juice - and when they had an event and it was on the list, I would go so I could get that apple juice. An easy way to convince me to come in. But also, there became a demand - when you have become a professional DJ, and you may be top three to top five in the Nordics as a DJ, the customers ask for you, and sometimes they need to pay extra to get you rather than others.

Shamil Malachiyev: What was your DJ name?

Patrick Smith: I had a lot of silly ones. I think I would have chosen a better name now, but I called myself Hermano - like "brother" in Spanish. I was DJ Salsa Tech for a period. And by the end of it, it was just DJ Patrick. So much easier, and the customers remembered me as Patrick.

But it was a fascinating journey, because I learned a lot from a young age - meeting people, going out alone. The Tommys of this world drove me to the event, I was dropped off, and I needed to introduce myself, be suited and booted properly, speak with the customer. If you have a wedding and you spend a fortune on it, a small cost is the DJ of the night, but it's a large proportion of the night - you have a three-, four-course dinner, all the speeches, and at the end of the night you finalize that with a wedding dance which turns into a full-on party. You want that to be the greatest time of your life, and it might last three or four hours. So it's important that it works out. You need to communicate with the wedding couple - they are excited, they want this to work, they want it to flow. And then you need to be there to entertain: speak with the audience, speak on the microphone. So I learned standing in front of people, communicating. A lot of these things took me to where I am today. And since then, going out and having all these failures, I learned from that whole process how to deal with it - and how to manage risks over time.

Shamil Malachiyev: With the whole story, I have so many angles I want to tackle this from. Let's start with the first one. What was going on in your head as a kid growing up? How does one decide, in his mind, "I'm going to be pursuing entrepreneurship" at somewhere around the age of 10? Was it someone's influence? Did you see Richard Branson and think, I'm going to be like that guy? What was the driving force? Was it just: I need to make shit tons of money?

Patrick Smith: No, no - I don't think money has ever been the incentive. I've actually reflected on this lately more than I ever had, because I'm sitting alone in San Francisco, so I work on a lot of processes: how can I improve myself, how can I become better at what I do? I always wanted to be liked. I was a big guy - I was very overweight when I was younger. Being center of attention and being in control of something has always been front and center. A lot of Norwegians are known as born with skis on their legs - really good at cross-country skiing, downhill, all that. I could say I was good at skiing because I am a Norwegian - and we're far better than the Swedes, by the way. I need to drop that in.

Shamil Malachiyev: I'm going to cut that out for the Swedish population.

Patrick Smith: Jokes aside - I think I was born an entrepreneur, but I also had parents that supported it. When you are 10 years old and they support you - I remember my dad bought me my first speakers when he saw that I had rented speakers over time and was trying to save up. He added the extra money I needed to get proper speakers to play for a couple of hundred people. That was a massive help, and when you see that support, the only thing you can do is try to work hard. I have never been afraid of working hard - I don't understand the concept of not working. Some of that comes from some of the letters that I have, where I channel it into doing something that is productive. That has maybe meant taking a lot of risk, though a lot of it calculated. Over the years I've got a lot of good advisors and support to channel that energy into the right places.

Back then, I wanted to be the center of attention, I wanted to be liked, I wanted to be the best at what I did - and that has always been the case. I think that's the reason I have not seen any risk in anything I've done. I've just been focused on: I want to be the best, no matter what. I'm a jack of all trades, so I'm not an expert in anything, but I've been doing so many things since the age of 10 - I don't think we have enough time to talk about all of them - and I'm just a product of everything that I've done. Having no fear, taking a lot of risks, having the support of my parents, having some letters, and wanting to be liked - that created this.

And I come from a family of entrepreneurs. My dad set up his business by himself and was a consultant for 20-odd years at the end of his career. Seeing that it's possible - that you can have your own office, that you don't need a large workforce - seeing that early, I think it helps you on the journey.

Shamil Malachiyev: So you think that was a role model for you - something established inside when you were a kid, looking at your dad working alone?

Patrick Smith: I know this is quite cliche to say, but I always wanted to hit the next goal. And when I hit them, it was: it's not that big of a deal to hit this goal - I want bigger and bolder ambitions. I'm sure we'll talk about what the goal is for what I'm doing today. Having the focus on becoming the best at what I do and improving myself was the driving factor rather than something external - I fueled my own fire, to put it that way.

I think the reason I have had challenges trusting a lot of people is that I sometimes think I can do everything myself, which is not the right approach. That comes from always being out on DJ jobs alone: you are the one that delivers, and it all ties back to you. If you are not the best at what you do, you're not going to have happy customers or happy people. And then, when you start making money and become the coolest kid at school - because you always have the newest mobile phone - that also fueled the fire: okay, I can just continue doing what I'm doing, more of it, bigger and bigger and bigger. That's what created that early drive.

Shamil Malachiyev: And has that fire stayed with you? Has the motivation changed or shifted shape? The reason I'm asking: through a lot of the founder friends I have, I see a real commonality - they start with wanting to prove themselves. It starts early, either to their father or to their mother, depending on who's more bossy, whose love they have to deserve. That takes them on a journey of 20, 25 years with that as the fuel - it's one of the best kinds of fires I'm seeing in the real world. But then the day comes when they sell, they have a lot of money, and they have to go through maybe 10 years of trying to redefine their own motivations. Have you ever struggled with: what is my motivation, why am I doing this?

Patrick Smith: I can say, for what I do today: I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed with building. I turned 40 this year, and I think it has taken me 40 years to understand that it's okay not to be the best, not to have PhDs, not to have this, this and this. You are brought up in a certain way, you have character, and you have a few things that are your superpowers. How can you utilize those superpowers to achieve what you set out to do? Once you identify them, you need to spend time on that. One thing I'm fine with now is actually owning my superpowers, using my superpowers, and nothing else. As a result, you become calmer in the process.

But a lot of people don't have the time to reflect. Being alone in San Francisco, working as a solo founder, you have time to reflect on this: how can I utilize myself? I've spent the last 12, 24 months on this journey. It's also been helpful that I've been part of accelerator programs where they ask you the question - you laugh about it, but then you have conversations with other people, you go away, and you actually start reflecting. Having that reflection time is so important for founders, to understand that they are good enough. One of the things we struggle with as founders is imposter syndrome. Without mentioning any names, I'm surrounded by incredible people that have done multiple exits, that are billionaires - and they still don't think they're good enough. Which is fascinating.

I don't need a medal. What I need to do is become the best myself. Ryan Serhant is a real estate agent from New York - he has his show, Owning Manhattan; season two was just released, which I haven't seen yet, so if you have seen it, don't tell me anything about it. I'm a huge fan, because he's chasing himself in 10 years' time. Every year he writes a note in his book, marked in his calendar a year ahead, with things he wants to accomplish and achieve. A year later he goes back and looks: have I actually achieved this? He just wants to become the best version of himself - always chasing himself 10 years down the road.

I even saw MrBeast - Jimmy - talking at a conference last week, and he talked about how 10 years ago he created YouTube videos which he scheduled to go live in 10, 15, 20 years. Have you seen those? He sat there and talked about how in 10 years' time he wanted to hit a million subscribers.

Shamil Malachiyev: Yeah, I've seen those.

Patrick Smith: And by the way, a couple of weeks ago he hit a billion across all channels, which is insane. Having a mindset where you set yourself goals and are driven by that, having that time to reflect - I think that's important. Will I ever stop? My wife said that after we've done the exit of the venture I'm doing now, it's okay if I take 48 hours. But she doesn't want me around for three weeks anyway - she says after three weeks, you need to be out of the house, because I can't sit still. The worst thing I can ever do is go to a beach. Number one, I hate sand in my shoes, and secondly, there's nothing productive in that. But then you can ask the question: how do you actually switch off? I do something very different - or I do what a lot of people do, but I find my own ways to switch off.

Shamil Malachiyev: And a lot of people don't know, but you are pretty hardcore when it comes to your daily routines - how vigilant you are about maintaining, I'm not going to say discipline, I'm going to say really good habits around your day. You've told me that early in your life you were quite overweight as a kid, and that self-confidence drove you to certain disciplines: how do I want to look, and am I ready to commit to that? Could you tell us about that? Because I know a lot of founders say "I want this kind of life, and to get it I know I need to spend hours every day doing this, this and this" - but only very, very few actually go and do what they planned to do. Can you tell us about your process?

Patrick Smith: It needs to start with why - why do I do what I do - and then I will explain what I do. Number one: my mom passed away very early from cancer, sadly; she struggled with different types of cancer for nine years. My dad had dementia and Parkinson's for the last three years of his life, and that can be caused by a multitude of things. So one aspect is: I don't want to die young.

The second, and most important above anything else: I have my girls - two girls, and my wife. And we have a dog, which is my best friend, by the way. I want to be around for my girls and my wife. In this period I build so much alone, away from my girls, but I think my wife deserves me to be around later in life. The first 18 years of any child's life is the most time you're going to spend with them anyway, so I need to be somewhat present now, but also able to be there for my wife later on. I know that's postponing, and it might never happen, but that's my ambition, that is my goal. So that is my why.

And the third thing that is extremely important: as a founder, you have ups and downs. My mom always said: don't wait until the storm passes - learn how to dance in the rain. And the thing is that you will be punched in the face a hundred times a day. You can start the day brilliantly, and then three people send you an email - "I've been recruited to another job" - and suddenly you're getting an invoice you didn't expect, and then an investor who promised to pay you never does. All these shits we deal with every day - and then you have all the positive things too.

I hate the word balance. How do you find harmony? The only way to find harmony in that is actually putting yourself first and treating yourself as an athlete. To talk about what you called habits, not discipline: I wake up at 3:45 or 3:55 - and the reason I wake up at 3:55 is that my coffee is ready so I can start at four o'clock. Now in San Francisco I wake up earlier and earlier, so 3:30, 3:45 is typically when I start. I spend an hour responding to emails, because the work hours back in the UK and Europe are eight hours ahead of me, so of course I have a backlog of emails to prioritize and reply to. Then between five and six am I put my phone in the locker at the gym and train with my trainer, Travis - a full hour, just focused, five days a week.

Then I go back home and have my breakfast. I know this is going to sound silly, but my breakfast is six eggs and 300 grams of prawns in some shape and form, and then I have steak for dinner. I try to be on a carnivore diet. I don't drink alcohol - I drink water, coffee, tea, and electrolytes. All these types of things create a routine, because one of the things I saw really early is that I have one shot at making this as big as possible. If I don't treat myself well, how can I perform as well as I should?

This is one of the things founders are missing in the whole picture: enjoy the journey. And when I say enjoy, I don't mean we need to go out and get pissed after work and grab a beer to survive. I mean: enjoy it, live it. That's the reason this is not for everyone - you know this as well. You can wake up and your wife can ask why you look so worried, and you can't tell the whole story, she doesn't have the context. You just need to deal with it. And this is the thing for us as founders: the more you take care of yourself, the better you deal with it.

A lot of my team members ask: why are you so calm? I always say: when things come around, it gives you the opportunity to pivot, to think differently. All shit - sorry to use the word - comes in threes. And when three bad things have happened, I actually say it out loud - I always call my wife to say it: is that all you have to bring this time?

It comes in cycles, so I know it's coming. That's the reason I need to prepare. And every time, I become stronger and stronger. This is how we get tested, and then you become better and better. You need to go through periods that are tough to actually think new thoughts. That's the reason you can't just say "I'm going to be creative now" and switch it on. You need to go out, go for a walk. I needed to fix something yesterday, so after a meeting I had blocked out an hour to walk from that meeting across San Francisco - 12, 14,000 steps, so not far, but I walked for that hour and it made me actually properly think. I thought about it, solved it, sent it to the board this morning: approved. How you deal with things is the most important thing, and that's the reason I treat my body like an athlete's.

Shamil Malachiyev: I hear a lot of people say: sorry, I don't have time to go to the gym, because I need to be present doing something for the business. And at the same time I look back and ask: where did the best ideas come from? I can spend 30, 40 minutes in the shower just standing there thinking through different things - my wife asks what I'm doing, and I say: I'm working. That's the best time to gather my thoughts, when there's a lot of noise around and nothing is distracting you. And going to the gym, listening to a podcast, or just taking the time to walk and think - the quality of the decisions you make when you come back, you can't even compare to when you just dive straight in.

Patrick Smith: How do you switch off?

Shamil Malachiyev: Switching off - I always have to look for different things to try. Sometimes it's just a walk somewhere. Sometimes it's a podcast - I listen to people talk about consciousness and all the other things. It gets my mind thinking in other directions, which I'm also interested in, and that's one of the best ways to switch off from the main work. And obviously going to the gym, doing something physical, making sure you're focusing on movements - it gives you less bandwidth to think about work. And sometimes when there's a lot of stress and anxiety, it's like: okay, I need to go get some stress relief. What about you?

Patrick Smith: You said something about being in the shower and getting focused - do you find that if you're at a conference with a lot of people, you get more focused? Do you block out the noise around you? What goes through your head when there's a lot of noise around you?

Shamil Malachiyev: It's a funny thing - working in cafes. When I was in London in 2012, I would always take my laptop and go to cafes. Well, I had a bad habit of smoking shisha - a water pipe kind of thing - and I would always sit down in very noisy places where a lot of people were talking around me, and just sit and work. Whenever there's something in the background, it helps me stay inside my head, and those are usually the most productive times for me. It's really hard for me to stay in it when it's really quiet. I don't know if it's like that for everyone.

Patrick Smith: Interesting. Everyone is different, but I think we are very alike there. The first time I came to New York, I was standing in Times Square and I couldn't hear a single noise. And you know how busy Times Square is - it's crazy - and I couldn't hear anything. It was quiet. So I found my way to get focused: I try to throw up as many balls, create as much storm around me as possible, so I'm able to focus.

Quite interesting - lately I figured out that when I'm working, and you're going to laugh now: I have multiple screens in front of me, and in the down corner of one of the screens I have one of two things. Either a husband and wife who travel the world cooking and DJing at the same time - a duo called Flavour Trip, incredible channel, just great music - or the opposite: Gordon Ramsay's Hotel Hell, or the restaurant clean-up type of program, where he's screaming and shouting at people. I just have it on in the background. People might think I'm crazy, but that noise - I don't even watch it, I don't even need to have it on the screen, I just have it in the background - makes me so focused. For most people that would be the absolute opposite. I think I've been through all the episodes of Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares again and again and again.

There are different ways of working, but you need to find what triggers something in your brain so you can actually focus on the task. The challenge - I think I speak for both of us - is that we're doing too many things at the same time and not being able to focus. You need to find methods. For me it has been timeboxing, where I actually allocate time in my calendar to do certain things. That has been extremely helpful - I block out, say, 45 minutes to do a certain task. Over time you become better and better at timing how much time a certain task should take. And in the office I have a stopwatch in front of me - I can set it to 45 minutes, and there's nothing else. That has been very, very helpful, because then I know there's nothing else.

The other thing about it: when I timebox things - let's say I plan things for tomorrow that need to be done - I don't get stressed about it, because I know I have blocked out the time. It will be done. Not now, while I'm doing five other things, but tomorrow. And then you can tell people: by the end of tomorrow you will have it in your inbox. There's no way I'm getting stressed about it, and other people know that Patrick will come back tomorrow with a result on the back of that email. So that's going to be fine - and that helps the team around me as well.

Shamil Malachiyev: What I've noticed with the timeboxing, which is interesting - I've also got one of those timers you turn around for 25, 35 minutes, and then it goes. And I found it really hard to make it a part of my disciplined life. After about five days I noticed I wasn't using it anymore. You drop it once, you forget about it twice, and that's it - it disappears.

And there's another thing I talk to a lot of founders about: self-confidence. Self-confidence is basically how much you trust yourself to do the right thing when it's needed. And the more of those things you try and fail to do - things you know are going to be good for you - the weaker that muscle becomes, the muscle that gives you the confidence to move forward and implement those things. Waking up at 3:30am is hard. Going to the gym every day at five is hard. Has it always been your comfort zone, or did you go through a period where you had to internalize it, to build up the self-confidence and energy levels to sustain that habit?

Patrick Smith: Persistence is the key to absolutely everything. Doing something continuously, every single day - it is hard to start with. But if that's what it takes to achieve what we set out to do, that's what I want to do. It's not hard to wake up at 3:30 in the morning; what is hard is to stay awake at night. How do you wake up that early? It's just about when you start.

And I can't complain. There are people who are genuinely struggling - we don't need to dig deep into that - and I'm fortunate: I get to do what I love to do. It says it here on the coffee mug, from WeWork here in San Francisco: do what you love. I'm able to do that every minute of the day. To wake up, you just have the alarm on and then you need to get yourself out of bed. Back in the day I always told myself - I don't like lazy people - and when I said that to myself, I needed to jump out of bed. There's no chance otherwise. My wife thinks I'm bloody crazy to wake up this early every single day. But you need to be crazy to achieve crazy things, right? And let me make that clear again. It's not hard to wake up early, you just need to make a decision.

There are two things that I love, by the way: standing in the shower, and sleeping long. But we all have 24 hours a day. And I don't recommend anybody sleep as little as I do - I go quickly into deep sleep, and four to five hours works for me, for long periods of time. Not everybody is able to do that. A lot of people need eight hours, somebody needs nine, somebody needs six - it's all individual. But let's be clear here: waking up is the easy part of what we do. It's what we do when we are awake that is the hard part. We need to utilize that, and have fun while doing it. If not, I'd need to find something else to do. And honestly, nobody would hire me. I'm too crazy. So I need to do this to be able to do what I do.

Shamil Malachiyev: And when you're that ambitious, that hardcore, I can bet it's usually hard to find people on the same wavelength to share the journey with. Because you see all of those other San Francisco companies, and most of them have at least two or three people on the founding team - some are sitting in rooms with five people as a founding team. Working as a solo founder - does it ever get lonely? How do you manage the loneliness?

Patrick Smith: Number one - everybody knows this as a founder, and you know this as well, Shamil: you never get a thank-you. You don't get appreciated for the work that you do. Everything you do behind closed doors, nobody sees. As a founder you have 10, 15 different hats on: one second you're sitting in a sales meeting, the next you're running payroll, and then you have to be in a legal conversation about something - and that can happen within 45 minutes, by the way.

So is it lonely? Yes - everybody says it's lonely at the top. But I have been fortunate enough to have a board that really supports me and the journey we are on. You need to find somebody that supports you, and it's not your mom or your dad or your brother or your sister or your girlfriend - it needs to go beyond that. And then of course I have my wife, who is brutally honest about everything I do and keeps me grounded, which I think is important as well - with success, you need to be grounded.

But having people around you that you can talk with - the fortunate thing is that I have, as I said, a board I can call with any worry. I can even call my board members and say: I just need to go on a rant now, because I have the X, Y, Z. My chairman was a founder of a company that grew to 550 people. He built that over 12 years, and it was acquired by Accenture. He's been there and done that. And when you have somebody that is stable, that has done it, that has the experience and knowledge, it's so important. Because at a lot of founder meetups they say on stage: we as founders don't know what we are doing, but we will figure it out. And honestly - I know that's true to some extent if you haven't got experience, but you can figure it out before you even know what you need to do. I think one of the responsibilities of founders is to make yourself a to-do list and actually execute. The challenge for a lot of founders is creating that to-do list, because they don't know where to start. So surround yourself with people that will actually challenge you to become better every single minute of the day. That is so important.

So to answer your question: is it lonely? Yes, it is. But you need to surround yourself with people that are with you on the journey. And who is that, and where do I find them? That I can't answer - it's individual. I was fortunate enough to be introduced to my chairman, and my chairman introduced us to our other board members. You need to be open as a book. You need to be vulnerable. And it's fair not to be the best at absolutely everything - that is not expected. I think we put this pressure on ourselves that we need to know absolutely everything.

I remember I sat with my chairman at a steakhouse in San Francisco in April. And I said: do you think I'm able to do this - to be the CEO building the next unicorn from the UK, in San Francisco? And he said: have you read the book about how to become a unicorn? And I said no - I was picking up my phone to go on Amazon. He said: don't worry, it doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. So you need to create it. But that's what we do as founders and CEOs: we create our journey. And we need to trust our guts. We just need to do it. You can get a lot of advice, but you need to take the advice, filter it yourself, trust your gut, and then do it. That's the only way everybody else does it. You think everybody that started knew everything about how to run a business and operate it at scale? No, absolutely not. They figure it out as they go.

Shamil Malachiyev: You know what really helps me with that kind of uncertainty - I was talking to a friend of mine who runs an IT consultancy, around 200 people, so always a lot of stress. And at one point he told me: I've started stoicism. I'm learning it, I'm studying it, I'm trying to live my life as a stoic now. And the one thing that really stuck with me was: there are things in life that you can control, which are your actions, what you do, how you structure your day, and what you actually accomplish within the day. And there are things that you cannot control. Is the investor going to give you money? You don't have control over that. Is the customer going to buy your product? You can only do so much - the presentation, understanding their needs and pains and conveying them; that's all on you. But if they're having a shit day and you're the last person they want to see, they might say no - which is out of your control. So only focus on the things that you can control, and life becomes so much calmer. I can actually control all of these things, and that's the only thing I should focus on.

Patrick Smith: That's the best thing either of us has said today, because it's so important - we become so disappointed. For instance, if you reach out to an investor and the investor says no - no, no: I celebrate that. I celebrate more the investors that say no, because that means that I'm closer to that yes. It's a numbers game, and it's all about being consistent in your outreach and communication - and also asking: what went wrong, how can I become better? Everybody I meet says: no, the investor hasn't got any money, he's shit, he doesn't believe in us, blah blah blah. And I say: but did you actually sell the best story?

A lot of the time you need to reflect. And what I learned in the process of raising funds - I've done multiple rounds now - is that you need to be able to share the story. A lot of technical individuals focus on the technicality of what they sell instead of talking about the human - explaining it in a layman's way. I think I spent two years and 5,000 pitch decks to actually get to a point where I can tell my nine-year-old, and she can fully understand it and she can pitch it to other people. That is what we need to accomplish. We need to focus on simplifying, becoming better ourselves, and dealing with these negative things.

Shamil Malachiyev: And you've also mentioned a thing today that resonated: the concept of a superpower. The reason I'm bringing this up - a good friend of mine, a very successful founder in Seattle. He's Court - he was the original founder of DocuSign. When we talked, he said: you need to know your superpower in order to know what to devote most of your time to, which is something that you're going to enjoy. And he said: do this with me. He took me through an hour of an interview - questions like, what kind of environments do you enjoy working in? And after that I had to go to all of my friends and my wife and ask: describe me in one word. What am I the best at? To find that one word. What was your journey to finding your superpower, and once you found it, how has your life changed in terms of how you think and what you devote your time to?

Patrick Smith: I think it has taken me a long time, because I needed to figure it out myself - having the time to actually think and not stress about it. And it's important to say: you need to know. If you don't know, you will not be successful. It takes time to figure it out, and you need to play with it. Because we might be talking to somebody on their first journey - they're 20 years old and setting up their first business. You don't need it to be successful, but it helps to find out what you're good at. Of course you need to deal with everything else, but it helps if you know what you're very, very good at. And of course it's beneficial if you are a technical founder who also has sales skills and is very good at marketing - you need to be able to sell a product to be able to make money. But it took me many, many years.

Of course, I've also been given feedback from a multitude of investor meetings - they are brutally honest - and I've been able to test things out. What I do is create stories - Post-it notes with story blocks in my head - and I change the order of them in different meetings: okay, how do I actually present myself in the best shape and form? Then you get feedback, and you can improve, and you approach things strategically. As a result of that, you're learning about yourself: how can I become better? And people say: you're crazy to do this in front of an investor. I'm not afraid to fail. If somebody says no - honestly, it's not my loss, it's their loss. I can send them an orchid and say "sorry for your loss" afterwards. It just adds fuel to my fire. Not that I necessarily would show them - but of course they will regret, down the road, that they weren't part of this journey.

So I'd rather focus my time and my effort on myself, and on how I can improve for future conversations. Being able to test this out live matters - you can practice a lot in your bedroom as a DJ, but to stand there on the stage, when there's smoke, there are lasers, there are people shouting, there's somebody yelling "play the new song from Drake" in the middle of a mix, and somebody almost spilling a drink over your DJ set - all of these things, you need to be able to cope with. When you're able to go out there and perform on center stage multiple times, of course you become better and better - as long as you reflect.

The superpower element specifically - how I got to it was trying to figure out what I'm very, very good at and how that can be utilized in today's business. And then you focus more and more of your effort towards that, while still running the business in the background, and you get feedback and learn more about that skill. I think it's so important for founders.

Shamil Malachiyev: And do you openly talk about your superpower - what it is?

Patrick Smith: Yeah. I think I have the ability to connect with people - it's one of my superpowers. I'm a great storyteller in certain settings - when I want, as my wife always says. But the connection element: remember, when you're running a business, the most important piece is the human-to-human connection. And when you're able to build that, build people around you - I'm not afraid of going up to people at events. I can speak with absolutely anyone, anytime. I look at everyone as alike; it doesn't matter. And as a result of that, I've built some strong relationships over the years, and that has been extremely helpful.

Shamil Malachiyev: I'm so jealous - in a good way. I've always had the problem of talking to people at events and things like that, and I'm pretty sure there is a lot I can learn from you. And what I want to ask is: what is your relationship to fear? A lot of times, with meeting somebody at a networking event, you have that initial fear: what is the person going to think? Are they going to like me - why? And what I found worked for myself: whenever I feel fear, I've internalized that I have to do this now. If I felt the fear and walked away, that would just destroy me bit by bit. So: I felt fearful, I have to do it. Make that call, get to know that person, make the first podcasts. What is your relationship with fear like?

Patrick Smith: I've stopped fearing anything. The thing is that you're wasting so much time, and it's just in your head. And honestly - if I cared about what everybody around me thinks... I've stopped caring about being liked. I want to be kind, that's one thing, but don't take my kindness as a weakness in any shape or form. Because I am extremely kind - I'm sure my closest friends will know that about me, and my staff and all that.

But when we talk specifically about the event scenario: when there is a meetup and you go into that room - do you go into an event with a plan?

Shamil Malachiyev: I don't think so.

Patrick Smith: So typically, number one: as a founder, if you go to an event, it takes time away from you. What do you want to accomplish by going to that event? That is the first thing you need to answer. Does it add value to your life? Number one, that can be: yeah, I want a free meal. Okay - you eat a free meal, you have accomplished that. Fine. But if it's beyond that - if you want to build a connection as a result of it - so, I go to an event, and I have three to five people that I want to connect with at that event, that I know are also going. I can go to an event, spend 45 minutes there, and the event is five hours. I leave after 45 when I've accomplished that. When you set yourself that target, there's nothing that stops me from achieving that goal. It's on my to-do list: I have to go up to the person. And remember: that person is as afraid of starting a conversation - so you're actually helping the individual out.

Here in San Francisco it's very different, because you come to an event and the first person - if they're a host, they come to you and meet you at the door: how's your day been? So immediately you have somebody that will pull you in, or ask: how can I introduce you to somebody? Which is very, very different, because people are so open about their community.

And this is another secret that we do: when we go with the team, and they know I have five people that I need to meet - in an hour, you can only spend a certain amount of time with each individual. So I typically call somebody over and say: let me introduce you to my team member. They pick up the conversation, and then we move as a group, and we do networking that way. We help each other out, and we've created this flow to work the room.

On having the fear that somebody wouldn't like you: say to yourself, if that person doesn't like me, does my wife still like me? Does it make any difference in your life? Of course, if you're trying to win an investment and that's the only opportunity and they don't like you - okay, that is something you could fear in some shape or form, because that's the end of that road. Beyond that - why? Why do we need to fear interacting with other human beings? I find that so strange.

What I hate hearing from people is when someone sends me a message on LinkedIn: "you seemed busy talking with people yesterday, I didn't want to approach you." The last thing I want to be is one of those people that are not approachable. Come and talk with me! Come inside: can I have two minutes of your time? And it might be that I say I will come and speak with you in three minutes - which, by the way, helps me, because then I need to go and speak with that other person. I hate when that happens. I want to be the person that opens doors and connects people. And remember, at the end of the day, we are all human beings that want to achieve the same things, and we can help each other out. You can ask silly questions. Just don't start the conversation with: so, what do you do? Stop doing that. Learn: what brought you to this event? What do you find interesting? Where are you based? How many years have you been in the city? Is there anybody in the room I shouldn't speak with? - "What do you mean by that? Is it you?" - and then you laugh, and the ice is broken. You just need to learn how to connect with people. That opens so many doors.

And the most important thing: when you have started a conversation - even one that felt extremely uncomfortable, where you're thinking "I'm stopping at one tonight" - you ask for the following: I need all the help in the world. Who do you think I should speak with in the room, and can you make the introduction? Because a warm introduction goes further than anything else. And 99% of the time, they will say: you see the guy or the lady over there? She's the head of X. I can introduce you if you want. I would love that. You come over, you talk - and then you're up to two. And then you can ask the same person: is there anyone else? And then you're leveling up. You understand? So always end any conversation with: I would love to add value - is there anything I can do for you? But most importantly: I need all the help in the world. Can you help me with X?

But the last thing that I want to say is: don't expect to get help unless you add value to other people. That's what they've understood here in San Francisco. Quite interesting - I sat next to an individual on Friday, a super successful guy, runs a $55-million-a-year company, 120 employees. Him as an individual: super great guy. But as businesses, there's nothing we can do together. And then after the meeting, he sends me a LinkedIn message: "I enjoyed our conversation today. By the way, I just thought of a guy that I can introduce you to." And then he sent me the introduction immediately.

Shamil Malachiyev: Wow. I know for sure now that we will have to do a follow-up episode as well, because we're just getting into the life and the hacks of it - it's not the hard skills, it's the ability to navigate the social world out there. I want to thank you so much for being vulnerable, being honest, and for sharing with the world. I'm pretty sure this episode is filled with so many good bits of wisdom and things to try that even I myself am going to be watching it again and noting things down. And I'm pretty sure I will be inviting you for follow-up episodes, if you'll have time to come and talk more about the lifestyle part of being successful. Thank you so much.